A Rallying Cry to Shake Off Artistic Entropy

Songs resonate differently when years have passed since your last listen. What’s inspiring me to write this is my sudden desire to listen to Death Cab for Cutie’s ‘Codes and Keys’ album, which I played on repeat when it was released in 2011 but haven’t revisited much since. 2011 was a great year for me — I was newly engaged to my husband and close to graduating from college. I was also making plans to move from Kelowna, British Columbia, to the province’s capital city, Victoria. It was a time of excitement but also uncertainty.

Perhaps I find myself drawn to this album once again because, after over a decade in Victoria and a decade of marriage, my husband and I have made another major change, relocating to the outskirts of Calgary, Alberta. For anyone familiar with these cities, you know that they couldn’t be more different, and that’s precisely what I’ve been craving. Some individuals have criticized me for this move, even making unwarranted assumptions about my political views (but my annoyances with west coast politics are a topic for another article). I don’t want to carry the baggage of BC to Alberta; I want the freshness, the thrill of the unknown, and the challenge of stepping out of my comfort zone.

So, it makes sense to be drawn to music that reminds me of a time when I last felt that exciting-yet-scary feeling of the unknown. However, I can’t help but feel slightly trapped by the nostalgia of it all. It feels inescapable. My art, my writing, even the aesthetics in my films, they all draw from the past. Everything I have ever shot embraces 80s new wave vibes, 90s fashion, or the cheesy humor of 2000s comedies. No matter how hard I try, I find myself drawing on inspiration from the past rather than what is around me. It’s not just me, though; our entire society feels trapped by the warm, weighted blanket of nostalgia. For example, fashion and music trends all seem to follow a five-year cycle of the 70s being trendy, followed by the 80s, the 90s, the early 2000s, and then back again. If you listen closely, most modern pop songs are heavily inspired by disco, and peasant tops are everywhere (and yet despite this, the organ hasn’t made a comeback ala pop music in the 60s).

Why is it such a struggle to create or listen to something genuinely new? I am happy and living what many would consider to be an enviable life, and yet I can’t imagine a future that is better than how we imagined the world would be pre-9/11. I don’t want to believe that society peaked thirty years ago — I want to believe that the world can be better, even if entertaining the idea of actively making the future brighter feels exhausting, like one more thing to add to our already full plates.

Even blind people can see that the Western world isn’t faring better now than it was in the ’90s or the early 2000s. It is clear that we’re in a state of entropy. But we must hold onto hope — we need to believe that things can improve, that society can re-energize, and that inspiration can once again come from the world around us, rather than solely relying on nostalgic media. I can’t speak for everyone (obviously), but too many people seem confined by the comforting embrace of nostalgia and are too apprehensive or exhausted to pursue something new. Sure, the world is grappling with… a lot. And I can think of at least three current conflicts that could lead to World War 3. However, it’s worth noting that the arts have often thrived during much more challenging times. The Renaissance, for example, happened after the Black Death, and movements like Dadaism and Surrealism emerged around the time of the first World War. World War 2 also led to a significant surge in consumerism, a factor I would argue contributed to the development of Pop Art (though comparing Pop Art to works from the Renaissance may seem audacious 😉). It feels like something happened in the 2010s that put a damper on the creative consciousness of the Western world, as if society collectively experienced a creative burnout around the same time.

Same, same.

Perhaps if we all openly discussed what we hope for (in life, and artistically), things could improve? What if we all embraced vulnerability and put our collective cards on the table and said exactly what we wanted to see change? Or we could all go balls to the wall and create the weirdest and most nonsensical things we can imagine! Could that kickstart a creative revolution? It’s worth a shot. Even if you’re not yet ready to create, reflecting on what draws us to our old favorites is a starting point. We don’t need to completely abandon the comforts of the warm blanket of nostalgia, but we do need to understand why we’re drawn to stay in that familiar bed. We should want joy and hope for the future, damn it! If Hollywood isn’t inspiring the masses, then it’s up to us as individual artists to take the initiative.

Sure, many things have changed socially since 2011, but that shouldn’t be a reason for our culture to lose its artistic soul. We ALL possess the capability to reshape the cultural storyline and to build a world that we are excited to participate in, if only we try. Entropy doesn’t need to be inevitable.

Influencers or Influenced: Teenagers Speak for Themselves

OVERSATURATED is a 6-part interview series by independent filmmaker, Ashley Good.

Through a series of interviews with individuals in front of, chasing, or inspired by the limelight, OVERSATURATED will explore a ménage of topics including: self-commodification, the chicken and the egg situation of the teenagers influencing celebrity culture and celebrity culture impacting teenagers, and the use of celebrity stories as a political distraction.

Read the full introduction, here.

Click here to read the previous article, The Social Impact of Instant Gratification: Interview with Mia Golden. 

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When discussing pop culture and social trends, teenagers are often pointed to as the ones who dictate what is “cool,” yet they are the demographic exposed to the most marketing… It’s sort of a chicken and the egg situation. 

For the final chapter of Oversaturated, I had the opportunity to sit down with three actual teenagers, so that they could defend their entire generation to all of us old people who have no idea what is going on. 

All jokes aside, these interviewees, Brooklyn, Gabby, and Kathy, are three incredibly well spoken and self-aware young women. This interview genuinely renewed my hope for the future, assuming the older generations don’t destroy everything first.

Relevant photo.

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Disclaimer: This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

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This project is about exploring the throwaway nature of pop culture and how people are so quick to idolize people but then also throw them away out of boredom — or if they do something wrong. So many people tend to throw teenagers under the bus, like it’s your guys’ fault. “Oh it’s their fault, they dictate the trends, they decide what’s cool…” I personally blame marketers, so I thought I would actually speak to some people… some youngins, and get your thoughts on this!

So we’ll start with a super simple question — what are you guys in to, media-wise?

Kathy — I think for a lot of girls our age, we’re at that point where it’s all (about) teenage boys… Teenage boys on TV shows and stuff like that are relatable… I’ve had experiences where [I’ve] Idolized them for a month and [have been] super obsessed with them…and then the next month you move on to the next fad.

Brooklyn — You start to get really attached to these “idols.” As an example, Kathy and I actually really liked the cast of Stranger Things and the IT movie and so we were completely obsessed with these guys. And we started getting too involved in their lives. We took it really personally, everything they did, even though they didn’t know who we were.

Group — *Laughter*

Brooklyn — Gabby actually said something really interesting earlier…

Gabby — It’s not all too surprising how we pick it up and throw it away so quickly. With material things, it’s kind of the same. Especially on social media, everything is popping up — there’s new news every day — new things every day — and when you hear “This new thing is cool,” and “This new thing is cool,” moving on is pretty simple.

Brooklyn — What Gabby said is very true, because we’re in a world where there is stimulation everywhere… We just need to open up our phones, press a button, and we’re good for hours. … It’s all so fast, so it’s so easy to just move on to the next thing once we’re bored.

Kathy — I feel like as teenagers we don’t really have control over a lot in our lives, so social media and the people that we idolize is the one thing that we have and that we can control.

Gabby — Back to Brooklyn’s point… Do you remember when Vine came out? Those were really really popular, and those were just six second videos. You would watch one and then the next one and the next one and I found if I watched those with my sister for a long time, that watching movies became hard.

How old is your sister?

Gabby — She’s 16.

What catches your attention online?

Gabby — Honestly, anything interesting. If my favourite artist comes out with new music I will be into that for a long time… Anything newsworthy… Also anything that my friends are doing.

Brooklyn — It’s definitely marketing, things that have a lot of marketing will catch my eye. Like when I started watching the TV show Stranger Things … I [saw] this billboard on the side of a train and I was like, “Okay.” I had already heard a lot about it online, I saw edits on social media about it, and I just thought that I needed to see what all of the talk was about. Marketing is so crazy these days and its very prevalent. It’s really targeted towards teens and I think it’s mostly because we’re still developing — we are more easily influenced, you know? So by them targeting us, and of course we’re the generation that’s coming up, so they’re more focused on us.

Kathy — Same with Stranger Things. I didn’t start watching until half a year after and that was because all of the social media. It just went crazy. I had no idea what it was about. … It’s definitely a good show, but part of the reason I liked it was because I was part of the trend. It was like oh, I kind of have to like it. That forced me to be a part of it. If this was just a random show, I don’t know what my reaction would have been.

What were you into before Stranger Things?

Group — We can’t remember…

Brooklyn — It’s still a huge thing these days. You see the cast on talk shows and you see promotion, promotion, promotion… Everyone talks about them all the time. So thinking about what I was interested in before, frankly I don’t really remember!

Kathy — I think before I was into Stranger Things, I was really into YouTube and YouTubers. I felt that they were the most relatable thing out there. It was really popular. Like beauty gurus and all that — they were really relatable. And [now], a lot of those beauty gurus, I haven’t heard of them in years.

Brooklyn — There was this one YouTuber, I hadn’t watched her, but it was probably in Grade six… and everyone talked about her. Her name was Bethany Mota, and she came out with a clothing line. And although I didn’t know anything about this girl or who she was, I wanted that clothing line! I wanted it as much as my friends [wanted it] who watched her!

Gabby — I had never really been obsessed with shows before, so [I guess] I started watching shows just because of them. I was never really obsessed with anything before [Stranger Things] to be honest. My sisters started watching it and I thought “Oh this is really cool” so I wanted to hop on the trend.

Brooklyn — Adding on to that, I think Stranger Things really just happened to come around at the time when we were going through a lot of development just from a few years prior to that time, where it became less about pleasing our parents to where we became more focused on pleasing our peers. So we became more focused on what other people were doing, and of course that is like, vital for growing up. … In middle school, we started caring more about how we dressed, what other people thought of us, so the throwaway culture sort of developed because we were worried about “What will people think of me if I don’t like [this certain thing]?”

Are you guys familiar with “Beetle Mania” of the 60s?

Group — Yes.

Kathy — I remember before Stranger things, definitely the one that I was obsessed with music-wise, was One Direction.

Group — *Laughter* Oh yeah!

Kathy — I was in middle school and I used to be obsessed with them. I used to call them on my phone, just to see if they would reply… I would search up their fake numbers. *Laughs*

I’m sorry, but that is adorable.

Kathy — And now, I don’t even listen to any of their music. Well, barely. Which is kind of sad, that [I could] just throw them away that fast. But that’s just the movement of trends. After them it was Bethany Mota and then after Bethany Mota is was Stranger Things…

Brooklyn — [One Direction] had been a band that was around for a long time, [but] I was never obsessed with them until middle school when everyone was making that shift from parents to peers. One of my good friends listened to One Direction — it was all she talked about — so then I started getting into One Direction to please her. And then I became a huge One Direction fan, just because that one friend was such a friend.

Gabby — [Another] show that is really popular right now is the Handmaid’s Tale. My friend started watching that and she was telling me how good it is, and I was like oh “Maybe if you say it’s good I should check it out.” I’ve started watching that, and I’ve become quite obsessed with it. *Laughs* And before that, I don’t even really remember what I liked that much. I mean, it was Stranger Things for a while… That’s just another example of how it changes quite fast.

Do you watch any of the CW shows that are filmed in Vancouver? Like Sabrina or The 100? Or are those for old people? *Laughs*

Gabby — I watched The 100 when I was in Grade 6. It wasn’t really a phase, I just watched it when it was first on Netflix, and then when the [second season] came out I was already on to something else.

How do you feel about all of those shows where they’re “playing teenagers” but they’re clearly in their thirties?

Gabby — I don’t [really mind], but I have a problem when it is a 20 year old woman playing a 13 year old girl and it’s really sexualized. Like in Riverdale, it’s really weird [because] Betty and Veronica — I read the comics a lot when I was younger, it was fun because they were teenagers that were boy-obsessed and they were clothes shopping and they had fun — but in the show it’s a lot of relationship stuff and sexual weird stuff. Things like that. It really does influence people, especially young teenagers. They think “Maybe I should be like that,” because the [show] makes it seem normal.

At least you guys think very critically about what you watch. I just have to say, you are all such well spoken young women. I wasn’t sure what to expect speaking with all of you today about your interest, but I think that you are all way more self-realized than when I was your age. Can I ask, do you take sociology in school or anything like that?

Kathy — I took psychology, and it was super-duper interesting, but a lot about what we talked about was related to the past and the psychology of the people in the past, where as right now everything is changing [because of] social media and that’s not something that was discussed [in class], like how social media is effecting our brains and how we think.

Gabby — Maybe you think it (adults portraying teens) is weird, but [when you] hear certain things on social media or from your friends a bunch, you start to think that it’s [normal]. It’s one way that your peers and the media really do influence you.

Brooklyn — At this point, because we only see these older people playing our generation, it seems normal to us. I remember the newest Spider Man came out with Tom Holland and he was a 19 year old playing a 19 year old and everyone was like “Oh he looks like a baby they should have picked somebody older.” There was such a disconnect, because we are so used to seeing the older generation portray ours. … We’re seeing these [actors playing kids] that are supposed to be in Grade 9, starting high school and they are *Laughs* very attractive, and I think that sets us up as some sort of failure. We look at our peer group and think, that isn’t us. Why don’t boys like that go to our school? Why don’t I look like that?

Because you haven’t had Botox.

Brooklyn — Exactly! It’s just this older generation trying to portray ours. We idolize that a lot because it looks really cool. From the day we are born we’re like “Can’t wait to be older!” And we play with these baby dolls, pretending to play house… As we continue to grow, that doesn’t stop. We always look ahead to the future.

Bare with me because I’m kind of working through this thought, but do you think that the youth genuinely want to grow up, or do you think it’s related to the marketing that you are constantly exposed to? Like, your parents “market” to you by giving you a baby doll…

Gabby — When I was younger … A lot of my friends — from what I remember, we were very young — wanted to be an adult so [we] could do adult things. I wanted to be able to do the same things my parents were doing. Maybe sometimes it’s related to media influence. Like how in some shows teenagers have so much fun and seem to do things that other kids can’t do, but now that I’m almost out of high school, I’m like “Oh gosh, I want to be a kid again,” because there’s no stopping. You can’t go back.

Brooklyn — I’ve noticed that a lot of people regret … trying to be older all of the time. But when we act more mature, everyone always prides us on that. Our parents and their friends…

And I just did that, I’m so sorry!

Brooklyn — *Laughs* We love the praise, we always do! But we are always being [told by the media] to grow older. For me personally, I’m in Grade 11 of high school. I [spend a lot of time] looking towards the future, so I think things like “No I can’t post that on social media!” Because of college applications and all of that. But I also find that I am losing myself in the future and I am very not present. I have had a lot of turmoil with that recent… just trying to live in the moment more. …All of the shows with adults playing teenagers makes it seem like us being young isn’t valid. You see that [impact] with the younger generations too. … They seem to grow up even faster. Their clothes are much more revealing than what I would wear, but then my generation wears stuff that’s more revealing than Gabby’s generation, and so on and so on.

Gabby — We’re in the same generation!

I remember back when I was your age… Oh God it pains me to say that… But yeah, a year can make a big difference.

Kathy — I definitely feel like right now I am so un-present in what I am doing because I am thinking so much about the future and I think that social media does play a role in that… Another example from Riverdale… [It impacts] how I see high school. Like I should be having a relationship, I should be preparing for this and doing this, and I literally spend my entire day thinking about “Why am I not like that?” So then I am not present or enjoying where I am [at the moment].

Brooklyn — We are just very unfulfilled with where we are now, and if the “marketing” doesn’t change, it’s going to feel like this for our entire lives.

That’s very true. It’s quite ironic because you’re talking about being marketed to to feel older, but then when you hit a certain age, AKA your early twenties, it’s all “Use this cream, do this, do that” so that you look younger! Don’t you remember when you were young? Don’t you want to be young again? … There is such a trend now in that people in my generation are constantly being marketed to with nostalgia. Like, the Spice Girls are getting back together — that would be like if One Direction got back together ten years from now. It feels like, whether through marketing or society, we are always being pushed towards something we can no longer have or are no longer the appropriate age for. I am not sure if it is for money making reasons or a giant social distraction…

Gabby — It’s interesting how we want to think “Oh they’re just marketing to us to get our money,” but social media influencers and actors and such always market this stuff to us — skin creams to look younger, cut your hair, get Botox, stuff like that. … When you hear on social media from [influencers] like “Oh I got Botox, I got my lips filled…” It’s kind of hard not to think that if I wanted to change myself it would be easy enough to do.

Is plastic surgery a common thing for the Instagram influencers that you follow to talk about?

Gabby — Oh yeah. I remember when I was younger, it wasn’t that prevalent, but it’s an every day thing now.

How old are these people that you are following?

Kathy — Thirties? Twenties?

Gabby — I mostly follow YouTubers, photographers, and mostly fitness influencers. … I just follow them because they are interesting and they do give me motivation to do things [like be healthy]. But for someone that [relies] on social media, they might think “Oh I have to get this done, so that I can look like this…”

Brooklyn — The people that I follow on social media are usually young actors that I like from shows, and people that I idolize — or just people that I find attractive on Instagram. I will sometimes think “How can I be like that?” Sometimes when I scroll by them in my feed I’ll feel really…

Gabby — Inferior?

Brooklyn — Yeah, inferior! It won’t be good for myself esteem, when I see these people and think “I don’t look like that…” I want to look like that, and I just don’t. [Teens] are so easily influenced because we are still in a development stage. You think about losing weight, or getting your eye lashes done — all of these different treatments, just to make yourself look pretty. These celebrities are all pretty people, that’s the thing… So them marketing to us, we go along with that a lot easier.

Kathy — On social media I actually follow a lot of people my age that are on YouTube, like Emma Chamberlain and all of those people. And I feel like right now, they have a huge influence … because they’re a little older, but they’re mostly in the same generation [of us], and that’s more relatable. They also [portray] unrealistic standards because they are so rich. … They have eye lash extensions… They [seem to] vacation every single day… They don’t even go to school, because they’re homeschooled… It imposes unrealistic standards on us. Like why isn’t my life like that? I’m just at school, trying to get through life…

That is a crazy amount of pressure. I am trying to think back to pre-social media. Just to totally age myself — Facebook came out when I was in Grade 11. Well, it came out a bit before, but that was when they opened it up for high school students to sign up, and not just college students. And then a year or two later, it was open for everybody. And now Facebook is what your parents use and it’s just terrible.

Group — Yeah, it is.

We also had Myspace. You had to rank your friends. It was terrible. But pre-social media, most of the marketing we were exposed to were TV commercials or magazines. Friends would read Cosmo, which was terrible. Do people still read Cosmo?

Gabby — Not so much. I know when we were much younger we would read teen magazines. Those were a big influence.

Do you think magazines are still relevant at all or are they just a dying relic?

Brooklyn — I will pick up a magazine when I am sitting in the dentist office. But magazines are marketed towards the older generation. Newspapers are dying out too, because everything is all online.

Kathy — I feel like marketing has changes a lot because it used to be like “Buy this microwave, it works so well!” … The goal used be to just sell products. But now it’s like changing our brains and how they work. They try to market to us so that we think a certain why, and market so…instead of making us buy products, they’re trying to change the way we live. I feel like that’s a little scary to think about.

Group — Yeah.

It’s got to be frustrating, because social media is enjoyable, that’s why we all use it. I think everyone here uses Instagram. And yet, we’re all bombarded with so many different messages…

Brooklyn — For example, this [business] behind me…

Jusu Bar.

Brooklyn — Yeah. I have never been in there. I have never tasted their drinks. But, I always see them on my friends Instagram. Or on any other social media. I always see that brand! … Even the brand of clothing I am wearing right now… Brandy Melville. It’s very expensive. Much too expensive. It’s all a one size kind of thing. The closest [location] is in Vancouver. It’s such a big thing.

Way to brag about your wardrobe.

Group — *Laughs*

Brooklyn — This is something that all of the “cool girls” wear… the influencers… You’ll see the influencers that are Brandy Melville models. You’ll [look at their posts] and think “That’s a cute top,” but you could also get that top at a thrift store for $2. Same with Aritzia, which is an extremely expensive store. All of my peers are wearing it, so I feel like I need to buy from there too. But I can’t afford it! But I want to be able to impress my peers…

Kathy — Starting high school, I felt like I couldn’t wear anything that was cheaper than what my friends were wearing. I dance, [which is all] very materialistic. You stand looking at yourself in a mirror for three hours in a row. It [made me] feel like I need to hit that standard. I need to buy Lululemon everything. I needed to be a certain size and all of that. … I have probably wasted 100s or 1000s of dollars on things I’m probably not even going to wear. Stuff I bought because I felt like I “had to.”

It’s all well and good for some adult to say “Don’t care what people think, just wear what you want,” but that’s just… out of touch.

Gabby — The only time I feel comfortable wearing what I like to wear is when I am [close to home], but when I walk around [downtown]… Just walking into the coffee shop [I felt self conscious]. …I do feel more confident the older that I get though.

I don’t know if it helps to hear but, most people, no matter their age, are so self involved and caught up in their own insecurities, that they aren’t paying attention to what anyone else is wearing anyway… So many adults look mature, like they have everything together, but so many of them are just kids on the inside. Most people don’t know what they’re doing. I don’t know if that makes you feel better, but it’s true. One day when that scary realization clicks for you, and you understand that know one knows what they’re doing, you’re going to be like “Oh my God…”

Gabby — When you are young, and influenced quite easily, it’s easy to be intimidated though.

And it’s important to feel like you fit in. I remember when I was a teenager, and yeah, you just want to fit in with your friends. Believe it or not, I was totally the weird kid that got made fun of. Can you believe it? So shocking! *Laughs* But eventually, you’ll get old and just not care anymore…

Brooklyn — With social media, we’re always putting our best face forward. Like, “We know what we’re doing!” And that goes for the older generations as well. [Similar to] when we’re seeing older [people] portray [teens] in these shows, we’re only seeing the best version of themselves. … So when we (teenagers) see these people on social media, we feel like we’re not valid. What we’re doing is not valid… We have this turmoil inside thinking that we should know that we’re doing, but we don’t. … Everyone is just trying to impress everyone.

You just explained why people like “likes” so much; it’s a form of validation.

Kathy — It’s easy to say we shouldn’t think this way, but in reality it’s so difficult not to think that way. Like, I could go up to Brooklyn and say “Be confident! You look gorgeous!” [When] in reality I [feel] the total opposite. It is so difficult… I don’t know how to think that way anymore, even though I can tell people to.

Do you watch reality TV shows?

Gabby — Whatever is on Netflix, so not really.

Brooklyn — I don’t watch reality TV shows, I usually watch Netflix as well.

Kathy — I actually do. I watch the Bachelor and the Bachelorette, stuff like that. And again, very unrealistic [portrayal] of what love is… Well, some of them do find love.

*Psst* They don’t find love.

Kathy — *Laughs* I just feel like [it’s an example] of how you shouldn’t find love… on a competition show.

Do you watch Keeping up with the Kardashians or is it just… aimed at old people?

Gabby — I don’t watch it. My friend does though.

Brooklyn — I know they watch it more in the States. Like, the Millennial generation kind of watches it. Growing up we all though we were “millennials”. *Laughs*

You’re Gen Y!

Brooklyn — Exactly! I’m thinking that reality TV shows are more towards them (millennials). I’m not even completely sure why our generation isn’t as attached to those reality TV shows where as [older people] are.

Gabby — Even though we don’t watch it, we are still quite influenced by it. I know when Kylie’s lip kit came out a few years ago, that was the rage for a long time.

Wasn’t that last year?

Gabby — I think it was a few years ago.

Time goes by way too fast…

Brooklyn — It was a few years ago.

Wow. (Kylie’s Lip Kit debuted in 2015, three years before this interview.) Life is fleeting, enjoy your youth.

Gabby — Then there was the whole trend of getting your lips bigger. Now it’s eye lashes. Because Kylie got her lip stuff taken out. So everyone was like, “That’s not the trend anymore.”

Kathy —  I definitely think that Kylie Jenner and all of those people on her level on definitely really influential. Even though they’re like 20 years old — they have babies — we still compare ourselves to them. Their bodies, and even their faces… Even though we don’t even know if it’s real of not. *Laughs* We just want it. We’re never going to be satisfied with ourselves while this (marketing) is all going on.

How shocked would you be if you found out that Kylie Jenner was just a hologram?

Gabby — To be honest, probably not that much, considering how much the media lies.

Brooklyn — We like to think that the media doesn’t lie and everything, but we know Photoshop exists, we know people are Photoshopping their photos and all of that. It’s like what Kathy said earlier, we can say something so easily, but really putting that into action with ourselves and making that a reality is so much harder. So me seeing these photos on Instagram that are photoshopped, that doesn’t click right away. … Like with Kylie, you think “Yeah that’s what reality is,” even though [she uses lots of Photoshop].

So what makes you decide to unfollow somebody?

Gabby — To be honest, I think I’ve unfollowed about 2 people in my lifetime. With Instagram, there’s so much of it, that you forget who you do follow. And also, back to your first point, you do forget about [the people you follow]. Not that you [try to] throw them away, but you do move on.

Brooklyn — For me, I go through waves of confidence where I’ll think, “No, you know what, I’m just going to follow the people that I know personally that I love and who are energetic and youthful and real,” and then I start going through my Instagram follows page and I just think, “Oh, but this is a popular girl at my school…” I want her to be my friend.

Does she follow you?

Brooklyn — You know, probably not. That’s the sad reality. You know, you keep trying to impress these people though, and then you’ll see this actor, everybody follows her, so I should keep following her… But I will go through waves where I feel really set in myself and I just think, “I’m going to go through this, I’m going to make social media a happy place for me again.” Because so often, it isn’t a happy place. It gets to this cycle where we feel bad about ourselves, so we scroll, we post, we get the likes, we get the dopamine. It’s instant satisfaction. Then we start feeling bad about it, so we get off of it for a bit. But then we go back to it, because we get that instant satisfaction and that validation from it.

Kathy — I definitely remember when me and Brooklyn were obsessed with Millie Bobby Brown. Then there was a time when she was kind of changing… She was getting less popular. No one really cared about her. Her attitude started changing, stuff like that. So we unfollowed her because of that. But then, I later refollowed her because I thought “I kind of have to, I’m a Stranger Things fan” even though I don’t really like her content. There was a time when I did “cleanse” my social media because my social media was full of ads and people showing unrealistic things, and I wanted it to just be a place with my friends. But it’s gone back, and I don’t even know how that happened. All of a sudden I am following ads again.

Gabby — Back to Brooklyn’s point about only following who you are happy with… I know with my friends, if they do one thing, I’ll do it to. But it’s only because I didn’t think about it until they said so. Like how [Brooklyn] follows popular girls sometimes… I know when I first started using Instagram I was doing that too but then a friend asked, “Why do you follow her, do you even like her?” and I [realized] I don’t really, and she doesn’t follow me back! … So if watching someone’s stuff doesn’t make me happy, then .. you realize you should unfollow them.

You guys are making it sound like Instagram’s numbers are a lot more inflated — not really that unrealistic. You talk about following all of these people, even though you don’t care what they have to say. The numbers are pretty meaningless then.

Gabby — It is quite superficial. When I say in real life “Oh, they didn’t like my post back!” My friend will be like, “Who cares?” *Laughs* But you didn’t think about that before.

Kathy — For me at least, I am even scared to post sometimes. Because it’s like, “Oh, this isn’t going to get enough likes…” I know it’s wrong to think, but I just can’t get over it. I’ll tell other people that again, like “Just post it! You look great! It doesn’t matter.” But I probably wouldn’t [make that post]. I know it’s wrong, but it’s hard to get over it.

Now you don’t seem like the type of people to do this, but do you even troll or post negative comments on people’s pictures?

Gabby — Most of us grew up being exposed to bullying… I know I was… So even thinking about doing that is just, why would I want to do that to someone? It’s nothing that would help their day. I don’t like being mean! I would rather post nice comments to help their day.

Brooklyn — My cousin is growing up with this technology. He’s a few years younger. I see him using social media in a really toxic way. For me, in Grade 8, I had a fan account for Stranger Things. With this fan account, I would be posting and everything and I would use a fake name because I have always been very conscious of what I share on line. [My friends and I] grew up when the switch was made from those old projectors used in classrooms where you put down the piece of paper, to smart boards — we saw iPhones come out! … So, in Grade 8 when I had the fan account, there was this girl that I told about it. And she ended up trolling me on another account that she created. She would say “I know who you really are, I hacked your DMs…” She was using really vulgar language to me. It scared me a lot. Because this was exactly what I was afraid of. …It rattled me so much. I talked to another friend of mine, and she was like “Oh yeah, [this person] does this all of the time with other accounts.” But online, we can all be anonymous. Even with my fan account, I was not me. It’s so easy to just say whatever. So, going back to my cousin… He did the exact same thing that that girl did to me in Grade 8. He started talking to a boy in Gabby’s grade. He started saying things like “I know who your sister is…” and sending him pictures of him. So this boy DM’d me and said “Do you know this kid?” The boy explained everything to me, and it just really rattled me thinking that my cousin was able to do that, the same way that that girl had done to me. I had a huge talk with him and everything. It’s just really crazy, because it can get so toxic.

Kathy — I had a fan account before. I would like to keep what it was for anonymous… *Laughs* You don’t even know how easy it is to say what you want on there. Like, Grade 8 me. Maybe Grade 7 me, has definitely said some mean stuff. Because who is going to know it’s you? But now I would never even say what was close to that with my accounts.

What made you want to say mean things? I know it was a long time ago, but do you remember what you were feeling?

Kathy — Just, other people on fan accounts would say mean things. So I would just say it back, because who is going to know? It’s so easy to think no one is going to know, so I’m just going to say it. Whereas what you show to other people…. Me, I would never say anything like that. But it’s way easier than people think.

Gabby — Because you’re young and stupid, and when you have a phone and social media, and it’s so easy to type out… What are the consequences? That’s what people might think. I was lucky because my mom didn’t let us have social media or phones until Grade 10, so that did alleviate a lot of the embarrassing stuff that could have happened. Even my friend, she had multiple emails and she was like “I don’t even remember them!” And now kids are getting involved so much young… People that post those mean comments are just young kids, and people that have nothing else to do in their lives.

Going back to the “throw away” part of pop culture. It sounds like you don’t really “throw away” people, it’s just that you are exposed to so much stuff and so much content, that you get distracted by something else…

Brooklyn — Exactly. Everything marketed to us moves so fast. Our generation is constantly moving, because we’re growing up. [For older people], between like, 45 and 44, there isn’t much of a difference between those two ages. But between 16 and 15, it’s like a world of difference. We’re moving so fast, we’re all in different stages of our lives by the next month. People may think that there is a “throwaway culture” but we are just so stimulated all of the time — things are always changing — so we just [adapt].

Gabby — I don’t think we throw [people] away. Every so often I will listen to One Direction and be like “I remember this song!” or another old band that you haven’t thought of in a while. It’s just that … it’s hard to keep up. [Especially] when new things are thrown at you everyday.

Kathy — I used to think back to when we were obsessed with the It (movie) cast… I’ll DM Brooklyn and be like “Remember when we were so obsessed with these guys?” and I still love them because they were such a big part of my life at one time, but life moves so fast… I don’t have time to go back there when there are other things I need to focus on, and new influencers coming my way that I need to adapt to.

Brooklyn — Every once in a while, I’ll come across an edit of the cast and I’ll send it off to Kathy and we’ll have this deep conversation where we realize that we’ve grown so much since then, even though it’s even a matter of months. *Laughs* … We’ll still talk about it, even though so much has changed.

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Thank you so much to everyone that has been following the Oversaturated interview series! If you are interested in finding out what is next for Ashley Good and this series, please visit blackframes.ca or sign up for updates here. 

Bread and Circuses in the Age of Social Media: Interview with Matt James

Originally published on Medium.

OVERSATURATED is a 6-part interview series by independent filmmaker, Ashley Good.

Through a series of interviews with individuals in front of, chasing, or inspired by the limelight, OVERSATURATED will explore a ménage of topics including: self-commodification, the chicken and the egg situation of the teenagers influencing celebrity culture and celebrity culture impacting teenagers, and the use of celebrity stories as a political distraction.

Read the full introduction, here.

Click here to read the previous article, Chasing Celebrity(ies): Interview with Cory Rivard.

New interviews will be released once a week until the series is complete. Please sign up here to be notified when each part is released.

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No picture sums up the 2000s better than this photo of the “holy trinity.”

Matt James was absolutely fascinating to speak with. The creator of the successful blog, PopCultureDiedin2009.com, Matt has a unique insight into celebrity culture because he grew up consuming all forms of pop culture media. He, as of this interview, is a 19 wunderkind (Matt launched Pop Culture Died in 2009 at the age of 14) that deeply understands social and political trends, as he has been absorbing and studying this celebrity world before most of us could probably even reach the tabloids at the grocery store.

This interview does not require much preamble, because Matt does a brilliant job of exploring several topics, including the use of celebrity nostalgia as a distraction, and why he feels that society should not brush off the Kardashian-Jenner family as harmless entertainment.

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Disclaimer: This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

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Did you really start the blog as a way to defend Amanda Bynes?

I started [PopCultureDiedin2009.com] in the fall of 2013. And originally, it wasn’t even about what it ended up being about. … At that particular moment I was thinking about the tabloid culture I grew up seeing, I was thinking about the celebrities that I would see on TV and in the magazines and on the news and it was so wild, you know. That was my childhood pretty much … I was just watching reality TV and watching celebrities have melt downs in real time. It happened at the era of people like Pamela Anderson, Michael Jackson, and Britney, and Tom and Katie, and all of these celebrities that were constantly being made fun of and ripped apart — some for good reasons — others, God bless them — I still feel bad for Britney to this day. But that was the moment. 

Everything about that era was basically seeing how far you could go, how far these celebrities would go before somebody actually would step in. And most of the time no one stepped in, we just watched them fall further and further and further and kept filming and kept laughing. It was all about gawking.

What roles do you feel blogs like Perez Hilton had in shaping in the 2000s? If at all?

I mean, yes, he (Perez) started out as an outsider but then he found himself ingrained in the circle of people he was writing about … he would hang out with Paris, he would hang out with Lindsay, and he would be sort of the messenger for all of the shit that they were saying about each other. So with him, it was a little different. He was a bit of a shitster. Can’t lie it was entertaining, but he was always sort of his own thing. He was sort of a brand himself. With something like D Listed or Pink is the New Blog or any of those other sites, they were just observers. They were watching, they were commenting. I really don’t think they necessarily had an impact, but I’m sure just their existence and all of these gossip blogs popping up at the time did contribute to the demand for more paparazzi photos and more of this and more of that and more celebrity content. 

But in all areas of media at the time, that is where the demand was. Whether it be in the magazines or it on TV in actual news media, since they were pushing for more of these stories, legitimate news networks. Look at 2007 alone [and] the coverage of Anna Nicole Smith and [her] death, the paternity battle, Paris Hilton going to jail. All of it. It was just blown up by these “respected networks.” So I think the demand was everywhere.

Do you think that the bloggers commentary might have influenced society today and that’s why we are at that point where everyone thinks that their opinion matters?

I mean, you could certainly make that argument. I think with Perez in particular, I think that he… It’s like a chicken and the egg situation. You don’t know what came first, people wanting to say awful things about celebrities on the internet, or you know a particular person that made his entire brand off of it. I wouldn’t say that [Perez] really led the charge, I would just say that he became the face of it and he had no problem with that. Because it paid back then to be snarky and an asshole.

I still remember all of the drawings he did of all of the women with coke and semen on their faces, it was so terrible and everyone just ate it up.

Yeah, but look at every single site around that time. You look at the comments and they were absolutely ruthless, they were just awful. I mean Perez certainly wasn’t responsible for that. I think if anything he helped encourage it, but that was the trend.

He was fulfilling a need that was out there…

There were so many other people like him, like Nik Richie at The Dirty.

What do you feel your blog’s role is in our current landscape?

I honestly don’t even think it has a role. I am always surprised when people reach out to me to say that they read it. I am honestly stunned that people even visit it to begin with, so if anything… It’s tough. 

I don’t really know the role I have ever played in the celebrity landscape in the last several years because I am viewed different depending on which platform you are familiar with me from. People that look at my Instagram assume that I am one of those dumb meme accounts that posts stupid pictures and there are like thousands of those, you know? And people who are familiar with me through Twitter, I honestly have no idea what they think my account is about. But people that follow the blog and have followed it for years obviously know it’s, in my head, in my little world, I would like to say it’s a bit more introspective. It’s a bit more of an insightful look into celebrity culture in general. Not just of the 2000s but even today.

I think you are way too modest. … I love the article that you wrote where you warned your audience not to laugh at the Kardashians political aspirations.

At the beginning of the summer in 2017, I was starting to write a piece since I was guessing at that point that the Kardashians were going to go into politics. And I assumed so because they had completely fallen off and become irrelevant since Trump was elected. I mean think about the last big story they had. It was Kim’s Paris robbery, and that was right before the 2016 election. … After that they were completely over shadowed and have become so irrelevant. 

I mean, if you follow them (the Kardashian/Jenner family) on social media, you think they’re still everywhere, but if you don’t make a conscious effort to follow celebrities, it’s so easy to forget that they exist most of the time. It was really easy to forget until Kanye decided to go, you know, full out with his Trump support. And then the rest of the family started to follow suit. … I mean, it’s tough, since a lot of people assume that they are liberal. And I mean, no matter what you think, anybody with that much money is not as liberal as you want them to be. Since once you reach a certain level of wealth, a certain level of privilege, it doesn’t matter if you stick a D or an R next to your name, at the end of the day, none of it really effects you and it is so much easier to close your eyes and turn your head and pretend none of it is happening. …

In this particular era of celebrity, a lot of people like to make celebrities the faces of social movements, they like to hold their celebrities to a particular standard, and they are eager to see if a celebrity is going to proclaim themselves a feminist or eager to hear their comments on this movement or that movement. A lot of people, they look to Kim, because for a lot of years she was the most famous woman in the country, and they were eager to turn her into this, you know, quasi-feminist icon. All about female empowerment, a business woman, all of that. And that wasn’t true at all, since she didn’t have any agency over what she had become, she was just the product of a bunch of men in Hollywood… Harvey Levin, Joe Francis… And so on…

Saying she is a business woman is a huge stretch. It’s like calling Trump a business man, when really Donald Trump as a business man, was a mess, created in part by himself and his own fantasy of being a big player… and also later that image was reinforced by Mark Burnett, by Jeff Zucker, by the people continuing to report on him without really questioning, “Okay is this guy even successful? Does he even have money?” People just stuck with the fact that he called himself a billionaire, kept reporting it, and never even questioned it. You see that same trend with the Kardashians where people continue to talk about them as if they were business people. They continue to talk about them as if they built an empire, as if it wasn’t really just a fluke. Since, let’s face it if Kim Kardashian was this girl from a no named family in middle America, would she have the success that she has had today? Even with Kris Jenner in the equation? No. They’re only as good as the people that surround them, and lucky for the both of them they’re from Beverly Hills.

I mean, you’re surrounded by connections and people in power everywhere so it’s really not hard to make a name for yourself. They’re really only as good as the connections they have. Same with Donald. He never would have gone anywhere in life if it wasn’t for the connections he had simply by being born a Trump.

Expanding on that… Despite the fact that they have fans in both Blue and Red states, why do you think people are so quick to assume that all celebrities are liberal?

That’s something I ask myself, since we constantly hear this terminology “the Hollywood liberal” but Hollywood isn’t that liberal. Let’s face it, sure they’ll endorse a democratic candidate as a bunch of A-listers, but at the end of the day, they really don’t give a shit. …

Look at Leonardo DiCaprio. He’s sort of almost this poster child for this “Hollywood liberal elite,” you know what I mean? A lot of people look to him and they think, because he pretends to care about the environment or whatever his schtick is, he must you know, be this Hollywood liberal. But at the end of the day, he was very very good friends with the Trump family, is very very good friends with the Hilton family, and once Trump got elected, I don’t know if you remember, but who went to Trump tower during the transition to talk about climate change? Leonardo DiCaprio.

These people are not as liberal as everyone wants them to [be]. And the idea that ANYONE in this particular moment in time is insulting Hollywood for being too liberal, when you literally have Donald Trump as the President, that’s ridiculous. He was one of the. He still IS one of them. I mean the things you see him say and the things you say him do are less like Richard Nixon and more like Phil Specter or Robert Blake. He’s a narcissistic washed up out of control celebrity that is spiraling day by day and living with these delusions of grandeur that I haven’t seen since watching Sun Set Boulevard.

It almost sounds like a form of “blue washing.” Celebrities think that they can sell themselves and their movies better if they identify as one political ideology over another.

It’s something I still try to wrap my head around. … I guess it is just wishful thinking for a lot of people. People who are fans of Leonardo DiCaprio and so on, they want them to be everything they want them to be. They want them to be forward thinking and liberal and all of that, but in reality, they don’t give two fucks.

I guess that’s true. I mean, I would be sort of crushed if I found out that Seth Rogen was super conservative or something. He’s Canadian too, but you understand what I mean?

I go in with a very cynical point of view [though]. Where I assume, you know what, even if they are making anti-Trump tweets, who even cares. It doesn’t even really matter, since they are richer than the average person, who, if they want to can make much more of a change and so much more of an impact, but they are only concerned with themselves, so I can’t force myself to respect any of them.

That’s actually a really good point. You have to wonder why society cares so much, especially since we can choose who we pay attention to. Why don’t we just idolize better people?

That’s a terrific point right there. So much of the fact that Donald Trump is president has to do with the fact that we make stupid people famous. Donald Trump is the end result of the era I write about in my blog. He is the end result of the Paris Hilton Era. He is basically, the product of all of those years of insane tabloid culture, with spiraling celebrities and feuds and this and that. This is the result. *Laughs* It’s terrifying, but it’s true.

When did you start noticing the connection between politics and pop culture? I understand that you are quite young, you actually started the blog when you were 13. You seem like you are pretty savvy about this.

Let me think… I’m going to go with 14. … I was always terrific at history in school, terrible at math and science and basically everything else. History was always my calling. Looking back at it, I was always in to US history, European history, and world history in general. I guess that has something to do with it? I mean, I was never really that invested in politics growing up. Mostly because I was super young, what was there to be invested by?

The [one] thing I have super vivid memories of when I was little was — and I’m going to age so many people by saying this — the 2008 election with Sarah Palin, that was the first time I gave a shit, because Sarah Palin was pretty much a celebrity. She was pretty much the Paris Hilton of politics. That’s the moment when I started to care a little, because everyone would talk about these interviews Sarah Palin was doing, you would see the clips on VH1 [of] her giving an interview at a turkey farm while a turkey was being slaughtered in the background. She was a fascinating mess. She pretty much represented this closing to the gap between celebrity and politics. It was inevitable. 

[If] you look at the culture around that time, [its] hard news versus soft news. Hard news is politics and the economy and soft news is entertainment and gossip, that withered away slowly over the years. I would say, beginning in the 80s, going into the 90s, you have tabloid TV really taking over the country. They you get into the 2000s and you have CNN doing breaking news reports on Paris Hilton being taken to jail. It was inevitable that celebrity was going to take over politics, because the news media was allowing that to happen, because the news media was so focused on getting viewers and getting rating, so they started reporting more and more on celebrity drama. It was really inevitable that Donald Trump was going to become President if you really look back at it. … 

I remember, I think it was Buzz Aldrin being interviewed by FOX News, this was in June 2007 when Paris was in jail and as they were interviewing him, they were playing clips of Paris anyway. They were literally replaying the same clips of her in the back of the sheriffs car, the clips of her crying, they have that on the screen behind them where they were talking to Buzz Aldrin about something completely unrelated. And it [sounds] so ridiculous, but it really explains everything. I think that really foreshadowed everything to me.

I am going to date myself with this, but I remember first really starting to pay attention to politics when Bush got into office — the second Bush, I’m not that old — and I remember the media portraying him as an idiot and making fun of him constantly, but then he won the election against Gore. I remember trying to convince more people my age that you should care about this, like this really messed up, but no one wants to listen to a 13-year-old. That’s why I think it’s so great that you started to pay attention and try to make a difference at such a young age.

Bare with me on this, but I have been thinking about the idea of using celebrity nostalgia in the media to keep people distracted instead of actually listening to young people when they say that bad things are going on now… Does that kind of make sense?

I think… It relates a bit of something that I have been thinking about a lot lately because of [my] book. First, I remember when I was very very little, the only time I would see George W. Bush referenced in the media it was because he did something stupid. He was a laughing stock, and it was widely accepted. I hadn’t met anyone growing up that thought George W. Bush was smart. I just assumed that everyone was on the same page. “This guy’s a fucking moron” you know? [And] look at how people are glossing over that now. They’re really looking back in rose coloured glasses… 

It’s wild to see how Trump is covered now. … George W. Bush was, without a doubt, a horrible person, absolutely terrible, but he has put up a somewhat okay front. He still sounded like an idiot, but at least he made an effort. When you see Donald Trump talk he just rambles. It’s literally like watching Anna Nicole Smith except somehow less lucid if that’s possible. *Laughs* … [But] I just feel like he is getting treated way better by the media than George W. Bush [was]. … They talk about him and they say he’s a billionaire real estate mogul who should have no chance to getting into politics or whatever… I pause right there. He was a billionaire real estate mogul? I didn’t get this news flash! Because he’s always been a stupid celebrity, he’s literally the male Paris Hilton but somehow because he wears a suit and tie people think he’s above it? It’s just so weird to me. …

I do think that if you do look at a lot of the reality shows on VH1 in particular, a lot of these shows that were premiering in the wake of 9–11, a lot of the celebrity reality shows, they were all about nostalgia. You had the Surreal Life, you had shows with Donny Bonaduce, and Scott Baio, and Antonio Sabato Jr. and this one, and that one, and all of these figures from the 70s, 80s, and 90s and making comebacks on reality TV — Donald Trump included — so I think maybe there was this ride in nostalgia around that time to sort of — whether it was consciously created by the media or people just wanted to go back to a time when it wasn’t as terrifying.

It’s not even just an American issue. Trump has influenced the political tone all around the world, even in Canada.

He doesn’t think things through. The strategy that Donald Trump uses against the media and the strategies that are now being copied by leaders around the world, they are straight out of the Hollywood playbook. The way he responds to news reports and the people who speak up against him is no different than what people like Michael Jackson would do. You know, Michael Jackson was everywhere saying “It’s a conspiracy.” He would say, “Burn all tabloids,” do this, do that, and would say you can’t believe that is being said about me on TV or in the press or anything. … I think Donald Trump has more in common with him than some dictator that I don’t even think he (Trump) knows the name of.

Do you think that the current political climate would be different if we paid more attention to outlandish celebrities?

In retrospect we should have paid less attention to them, we really should have. Like I bring over and over again, the fact that Paris Hilton going to jail was treated like the biggest news story in the world for a moment in time, that should never have happened to begin with. … Around the time that the Paris jail story happened, was also around the time of the Scooter Libby drama where Bush commuted his sentence. That wasn’t really covered at all. No one really talked about that, it was all about Paris going to jail. … There are a million reasons you could say it was covered to the extent that it was. It really distracted and really prevented the Bush administration from being held accountable for anything, since we were all too distracted by the stupid shit these celebrities were doing.

Moving away from politics a bit… It feels like one of the easiest ways to discredit somebody is to just apply a label to them. So in Hollywood, it feels like everyone sort of falls in an archetypal category, the hero, the heartthrob. Why do you think everyone is so quick to label celebrities and do you think that it’s an accidental or manufactured thing?

I think it’s inevitable, that’s just how the world works. Unless we categorize people, it’s harder for us to process things, you know? It’s natural, it’s instinctive. I think our rushing to call somebody this or that is just human nature.

The basis of this project is that I believe society is too quick to idolize and then throw away those same celebrities. What do you think it says about our culture that we cast aside our idols so quickly? Do you think it is related to consumerism?

Either something is hot or it’s not. That’s just how it works. I think it is also really representative of Hollywood in general. There was an amazing quote that I loved… I think it was the dedication in Hole’s Celebrity Skin album. The dedication said this is “To the stolen waters of Los Angeles and anyone who has ever drowned.” And I LOVED that because it is so true. … It references the Water Wars of Los Angeles and these farmers and these people that have built their livelihood lost everything so that the water could be [used] to create this metropolis…. The City of Angels. Without destruction, Hollywood couldn’t have existed, quite literally. 

Then, to think about it metaphorically… Hollywood couldn’t be what it is unless people fell. Unless people didn’t succeed. Unless people didn’t go out there and didn’t see their dreams absolutely crushed. Not everyone can become a star. Not everyone can become famous. That’s just how it works, it’s how the system goes.

Why do you feel “Pop Culture Died in 2009?”

It’s because of social media. I picked 2009, because I felt like that was the year that social media started to become what it is today. You had Twitter becoming what it [is] today … With social media, you could go on someone’s profile and will have a million followers and you will have no idea who they are. They have the blue check mark — they’re verified — and they call themselves a model or an actor or whatever and you’ve never heard of them a day in your life. There are so many of those. Back in the day, if someone was a model or actor, you knew who they were. You all knew the same set of celebrities. But now it’s different because social media create so many different corners on the internet that people can be in, and they [can] idolize and worship people that you have never heard of. 

[Social media] has destroyed the uniformity that existed in pop culture — in the 2000s in particular… you would see celebrities [everywhere] and you all knew who they were! You could turn to the person next to you and they would know what happened with Anna Nicole Smith, because there was a specific set of celebrities and that’s how it was. It was a monoculture, pretty much. And everyone was plugged into the same outlets, the same mediums, and the same group of people. That completely disappeared with social media, and I think the only celebrity that truly unites everybody like pop culture used to, is Donald Trump now.

Do you think we are witnessing the demise of the idea of the A List?

I guess so, since it really doesn’t matter any more because of social media. There are like I said, people with millions of followers that you have never heard of a day in your life, yet they have admirers, they have fans, they have people that worship them, and they aren’t even on the D List if you think about it in the grand scheme of things. They are not on any list. To you they don’t even exist. … So I think the traditional idea of the A [and] D List, that’s pretty much irrelevant now.

Do you think we have reached “peak celebrity?”

Yeah, because at this point, everybody is a celebrity. When you are on social media and you’re getting likes and you’re getting followers, in a way you are competing with a legitimate celebrity who is trying to do the same thing. Everybody is competing with each other, [and] everybody is a celebrity is their own head.

I feel like if Andy Warhol was still alive, he’d look at how we are now and he would be like “Wow I didn’t mean it literally, slow down a bit!”

Definitely. *Laughs* I mean, it’s crazy to think this is where we ended up and it’s even crazier to think that it’s going to go further. I mean, just imagine where we’re going to be ten years from now, twenty years from now. It’s just surreal to think about.

President Spencer Pratt?

You know, he was actually considering running for governor of California in 2007. He said if Arnold Schwarzenegger could do it, why couldn’t he? So now at this point, he might as well run for president. I could be his campaign manager. I would be far less sketchy than Paul Manafort. No connections with any oligarchs, I’m good!

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Read more from Matt at PopCultureDiedin2009.com and follow him on Twitter @pcd2009 and on Instagram at @popculturediedin2009

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New interviews will be released once a week until the series is complete. Please sign up here to be notified when each part is released.

Chasing Celebrity(ies): Interview with Cory Rivard

Originally published on Medium.

OVERSATURATED is a 6-part interview series by independent filmmaker, Ashley Good.

Through a series of interviews with individuals in front of, chasing, or inspired by the limelight, OVERSATURATED will explore a ménage of topics including: self-commodification, the chicken and the egg situation of the teenagers influencing celebrity culture and celebrity culture impacting teenagers, and the use of celebrity stories as a political distraction.

Read the full introduction, here.

Click here to read the previous article, Celebrities Aren’t Given a Guide Book: Interview with Sean Gehon

New interviews will be released once a week until the series is complete. Please sign up here to be notified when each part is released.

For Part 3 of Oversaturated, I sat down with screenwriter and filmmaker, Cory Rivard. Cory is the every-man’s Kevin Bacon. In fact, I would argue that through Cory, the world is connected through five degrees instead of six. This man has practically met everyone, and is seemingly always just a few seconds away from getting his fifteen minutes of fame. 

I felt that Cory Rivard would offer an interesting perspective after interviewees Brittany Flickinger and Sean Gehon both spoke out against fame for the sake of fame.

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Disclaimer: This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

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To those that don’t know you, you are basically of the Forest Gump of famous stuff. Whether it’s deliberate, or by accident, you somehow find your way into these situations. You’re also a screenwriter and filmmaker, which gives you an even more unique insight into celebrity culture.

With [celebrity], there are so many people going in through the front door, I figured it’s easier to try to sneak in through the back.

So here’s something I never ask someone to do, but… Please, name drop.

Brad Pitt, Bono, Robert DeNiro, The Black Eyed Peas, Paris Hilton, Bill Murray, Ozzy Osbourne…

Avril Lavigne…

Yes, and Jerry Seinfeld, Liv Tyler, Smashing Pumpkins, Steven Tyler, John Mayer, Diana Ross, Norah Jones… Umm… Who else?

Avril Lavigne.

You really like this Avril Lavigne story.

I just really want to hear about that story, if you’re allowed to talk about it.

Of course, it’s my favourite story.

Maybe the reader should first Google, Cory Rivard and Avril Lavigne…

That’s the Hilary Duff you’re thinking about. Easily confusable! *Laughs* Google “Winnipeg Groupie Ruffles Duff’s Feathers.” That should do it.

Wait, what is the Avril Lavigne story then?

That’s the Grammy party story! … In 2003, I went looking for Grammy parties in New York City, and I found one when I saw Avril Lavigne and a red carpet and a huge kerfuffle…. Four of my friends and I tried to get in. So when I snuck past the door, I looked behind me and the bouncers are throwing my friends over their shoulders… I b-lined left and hid upstairs in the bathroom — when I ran upstairs I passed Bonnie Raitt and Vanessa Carlton and almost had a heart attack — so, anyway, I went and hid in the bathroom for a moment, and standing right next to me in the bathroom was one of the Barenaked Ladies, which continued my heart attack.

As I left the bathroom, the Barenaked Ladies guy started talking to me, and then Matt Stone from South Park came up and started talking to me… My heart attack continued… So then I went downstairs where some guy called me over to sit with him. He was there with one other guy. I wasn’t quite sure where I recognized him from. He asked what I was doing there. I lied and said my Grandpa was nominated for a Grammy, for Classical Composition or something. And I asked him what he was doing there. He said he just won Best New Artist, and then I realized I was talking with John Mayer. Then John Mayer and I proceeded to talk the open bar for the night, where I watched John Mayer be starstruck by Diana Ross, so we went and hung out with Diana Ross… Elvis Costello, Diana Kroll, they all joined us. It was an incredible time.

Seriously though, how did this start? This, being your series of experiences…

I always had a keen interest in pop culture, via my Mom’s Entertainment Tonight viewing and Enquirer subscription. I went to New York right after high school. Jerry Seinfeld and Colin Quinn walked past me. … My brain exploded, and I had this realization that celebrities are just people that you can actually approach and talk to. I just kept using that as a tool in my life.

A lot can be said for the power of confidence and faking it until you make it.

That’s very true. I mean, I haven’t paid for a concert in about 20 years. If you just walk with a cell phone, you can walk in anywhere… I’m sorry, I really want to say something intelligent…

It’s okay. You’re exhausted because you had a date last night with someone, um, “pop culture relevant.”

*Laughs* Yeah. 

A little off topic, but what do you think of the fascination that younger people seem to have with Instagram influencers and online celebrities?

Celebrity when I was younger, I don’t think focused as much on, um… stupid people. Jerry Seinfeld was one of the most famous people around when I was younger, and he’s one of the more brilliant men alive.

What do you think draws young people to Instagram celebrities versus, more traditional celebrities?

It’s a popularity contest. Instead of being the coolest person in the room they’re trying to be the coolest person on the internet.

Maybe people think that, “Oh this person has 100,000 followers, I should like them too…” What attracts you to the people that you are a fan of?

Usually talent. I was most excited to meet Robert DeNiro, and other film heroes of mine. But I would still get a kick out of meeting, you know, Nelly.

You haven’t met Nelly yet?

I haven’t met Nelly. I met Puff Daddy, or P. Diddy. He was one of the surprisingly nice celebrities out of all of them.

So I shouldn’t go into the conspiracy theories about Biggie and Tupac and Puff Daddy…

I’m pro Puff.

You said that your mom’s tabloid magazines were one of the reasons you got into pop culture. Does she know? What does she think of your stories?

She probably wishes I was a doctor or something. But she made this person, so this is how it is. *Laughs*

Do you feel that a fixation with celebrity can be an unhealthy thing?

Absolutely. But that depends on the version of fixation. For me it’s like an adventure.

You seem to look at things more critically.

Yeah. Sort of like a hobby? Maybe not a hobby, like an adventure? “Which celebrity can I try to meet today, so I’m not bored?”

Have things like #metoo and the other news stories out of Hollywood these past few years impacted your view on celebrity culture?

I think my view has always been that they are regular people who are capable of terrible things.

You don’t have to use names but what’s the worst thing you’ve seen?

My mind just goes to Hillary Duff, who I am not a fan of… Um, I got into a fight with Jenny Lewis’s boyfriend. Bill Murry broke it up. I took an olive off of his (Jenny Lewis’ boyfriend) plate and he got up and threatened to shove the olive up my ass. Bill Murray literally jumped between us to stop the fight, so that was fun…

Was this at the Grammy party?

It was at a party at Elvis Costello’s.

You sort of started this whole adventure when working on one of your screenplays… 

I went to New York to write a movie about a rock star. We went to LA together, New York together, Nashville together… She introduced me to her family, the Smashing Pumpkins, Debbie Harry… That was just like, a three-year adventure.

And that was just because you wanted to write a screenplay about her.

I wanted to make movies anyway and figured, why not make one about this interest (celebrity culture) that I have? And there for I did.

Are you able to talk about the documentary you are working on right now?

It’s called Super Duper Sparkling Magic, about a guy called Christopher Curpen who is the most interesting guy on Earth. [He is] the most eccentric guy in all of Winnipeg, an eccentric hippie who just turned 50 and lives in a mansion. A camera crew and I followed him around over the past year. [Definitely] the most interesting guy alive — he was a lot of fun to follow around.

On your quest for celebrity adventure… Do you have a goal that you are trying to achieve? Are you trying to be famous yourself, or are you just along for the ride?

It took a few years for me to realize that the adventure part was fun, but did not have a lot of long term pay off. So I’ve kind of slowed down in that department, and am now focusing on film-making, and going all of the way with that on my own. And not latching on to celebrities as much. I’m going to make my own celebrity. Within myself.

And, star wipe!

Delete. Delete…

Would you welcome the chance to be famous yourself?

Without a doubt. I expect it. *Laughs* I’m half way there. … I think that you sort of attract what you’re looking for. To a degree, these things kind of fall in to my lap. I went to Mexico, like one time ever, and on the resort Nick Lachey just happened to be staying there next to us. Everywhere I go, it sort of happens. It’s strange. …

Dina Lohan, Lindsay Lohan’s mom, was just on celebrity big brother, where one episode focused on her having a long-distance boyfriend who she had never actually met. She talked to him on the phone all the time. Everyone was making fun of her and saying she was being catfish because this guy never even face timed her or anything. So anyway, the show finishes, and I’m talking to my friend, the TV’s on the in the background, and this guy that I knew when I was in LA with [the previously mentioned rocker]… She was dating this really rich weird dude that I knew from LA. That was the cat fish guy! And uh, TMZ ended up reporting all of this stuff. The guy was a mess. He was obsessed with me.

What? *Laughs*

We went out drinking. He fell through the table all Chris Farley style. I was really considering calling TMZ…

Do you think he’s trying to fill the wounds in his broken heart that you gave him, with Dina Lohan?

It’s likely. It’s almost certain.

So, you don’t go out of your way to end up in these situations?

Maybe a little from column A and a little from Column B. But, it does just seem to happen. Or, you recognise what you enjoy right? I have an eye. Like, there’s no famous person that’s walking by without my noticing.

There is something that can be said for the universe responding to what you put out.

I don’t know what I’m putting out, but there’s some weird stuff coming back.

***

Cory Rivard in on Instagram at @coryrivard.

***

New interviews will be released once a week until the series is complete. Please sign up here to be notified when each part is released.

Celebrities Aren’t Given a Guide Book: Interview with Sean Gehon

OVERSATURATED is a 6-part interview series by independent filmmaker, Ashley Good.

Through a series of interviews with individuals in front of, chasing, or inspired by the limelight, OVERSATURATED will explore a ménage of topics including: self-commodification, the chicken and the egg situation of the teenagers influencing celebrity culture and celebrity culture impacting teenagers, and the use of celebrity stories as a political distraction.

Read the full introduction, here.

Click here to read the previous article, The Commodification of Reality Stars — Interview with Brittany Flickinger

New interviews will be released once a week until the series is complete. Please sign up here to be notified when each part is released.

***

What would you do if your favourite TV network (or more realistically, streaming service) asked you to host a show? Let’s assume that, unless you’re a professional actor, or the child of a Dance Mom, you probably haven’t been preparing for said role... Look at what you’re wearing. Look at your body. Look at your social media presence. Are you ready to be thrust into the spotlight right now, for millions of people to judge? What would you do if you found yourself the face of a channel tomorrow?

Sean Gehon found himself suddenly famous when he landed a spot in Much Music’s VJ Search; a reality competition he entered entirely on whim. 

For those of you not from Canada, or over the age of 25, Much Music was Canada’s answer to MTV. It was not only our main music channel, Much Music would host events and concert series across the country — they were a cultural icon.

Although Sean believes that his time on the reality show was mostly positive, the after affects of it have plagued him for years. While Sean did not win the VJ Search competition, he was immediately scouted by STAR! Canada to become their newest host. Unless most jobs though, there was no training — he was thrust back into the spotlight, but now with the added pressures of representing an entire network and speaking with celebrities.

I thought it that this interview with Sean Gehon was a very interesting follow-up to the interview with Brittany Flickinger because of similar situations that they faced. Even though the reality shows that thrust Sean and Brittany in the spotlight were quite different, and in different countries/television markets, they shared many similar experiences with the pressures of navigating life once the cameras have stopped filming.

Disclaimer: This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Let’s start with the most cliché question ever. Tell me a bit about yourself.

I’ve always gone with the flow in my life, whatever happens, happens — that’s how I ended up on a reality show, how I wound up at Star… I just decide on an adventure. I moved out here to become a famous celebrity-slash-actor and so far that’s not working out, but it’s been fun. I work retail right now but I act on the side. I like to think of myself as an entertainer... I like to lie about my age. I hope that’s relevant to this situation… Let’s just come up with a fake one.

We’re all 26.

Alright, I like it. My birthday card from my mother this year says I’m 25, I was like, thanks for getting on board… *Laughs* … [Pretty much] I’m a big weirdo that loves entertainment and movies. I’m just a huge nerd.

It sounds like everything you do all comes back to being in the entertainment industry.

Yeah! I just remember growing up and being fascinated by the world of pop culture and fascinated by what makes someone a celebrity. I mean what really is the difference between a one hit wonder and someone who stands the test of time? I remember being OBSESSED with the Spice Girls. Everything about them. And now when I look back on that — and I still love them, don’t get me wrong, they’re amazing — but that was just such a flash in the pan! It was really like four years. In my childhood it seemed like eternity that would go on for ever. It was only four years of the Spice Girls! They didn’t stand this huge test of time or anything. So being fascinated with that [idea] is what got me into Much Music and that whole world. It was just this fascination of what Much Music was at the time. At the time it was the pop culture hub of Canada.

It was the thing to watch!

Right! And now it’s what, just some schlocky re-run program of shows from the States? Do they even play music anymore? Do they even have VJs? I don’t think so.

I saw that Ed the Sock had a Kickstarter to make sort of a new Much Music or something and it broke my heart.

I had the pleasure of meeting Ed the Sock — well not Ed “the Sock,” but he was there — but I was just astounded. That man is so smart and so quick. That was a true Canadian icon. But I guarantee if you go to any Canadian kid today and say “I met Ed the Sock” they’d be like “What the fuck are you talking about?” And he was like a huge part of Much Music’s [peak] culture! I don’t even know what Much Music is now.

So, take us back to 2006… Why did you decide to apply to the VJ Search?

[It’s] the most cliché reality show story of all time. So, my friend, she really wanted to get into journalism. She wanted to be a reporter on TV. I was a 19 kid who had no idea what they wanted to know with their life. I saw my best friend, and I was like, look. They’re going on tour for this Much Music thing. She used to host karaoke, so I was [all], you’re a host. You entertain people all of the time. All you have to do is get your ass up on the stage, tell a few jokes, who knows what will happen!

She ended up not going. … Me and [another] friend wound up going…

And I just went up. … I don’t even know what I said. I went up, I did two minutes of telling stand up, just bad jokes and being an idiot. [Afterwards] I had [my audition DVD] and just threw it in my closest like screw it, I’ll never need this thing again! That was summer. Then I got a call, it had to be after Christmas. Sometime Boxing Week. They were like “Hey it’s the Much Music VJ Search.” I was like what?! Okay! I was literally out of the shower — there was a long number on my phone, and I thought it was a telemarketer — and I was so mad, I was wet and naked. [After] I was like “Ha ha that’s so funny! They actually called me.” … I was [out shopping with friends] two weeks later and they called me again and I was like, “What is happening?! How is this happening?!” Then, at the time I was dating this guy and we were out at his place on a farm in the middle of fricking Saskatchewan and they called and were like “Your flight leaves on this date, are you coming?” And I was like, “I guess so?” And the rest was cheesy television history.

That’s the most Canadian reality show story of all time. You’re on a farm and everything…

I told my boyfriend that I was being interviewed for this thing (VJ Search), and I left the room (to take the phone call) and had to sit there and be quiet because they [said] you can’t tell anyone… My boyfriend knew, but it was crazy! Less than a week later I was on a plane to Toronto. They [said] “Oh we’ll meet you.” There was some weirdo [waiting] with a picture of my face! It was such a bizarre experience. I could have been getting kidnapped! In hindsight, that was a little murder-y. *Laughs* …

It is such a bizarre thing to do reality TV. You would watch people be one way when the camera was off, suddenly the cameras would be on, and they’d be acting a totally different way — zanier, and more in your face — thinking that’s what they had to do to get on the show. And I was just sitting there like you guys are idiots! And I swear, the reality TV people must have hated me because I every time someone was different I’d be like, “Why are you acting different now that the cameras are on? Why are you acting different? What is happening?!” *Laughs* I got pulled aside and told, “Sean, you’ve got to stop calling people out on camera. We can’t use any of this footage.”

I find it interesting that they didn’t actually tell you to play a character. Like with so many other reality shows — I mean maybe it’s gotten worse over the years — but it’s basically all scripted.

We weren’t the type of show where cameras were around 24/7. For the “candid” moments, they’d bring in the cameras and you’d all know that the cameras were there, then of course all of the antics would amp up and whatever, but no, I was never [coached]… Okay, I can think of two times that I was instructed to do something that was “scripty.” … In the second episode, Frank and Eric (two other contestants) were getting into a huge fight and Eric tried leave the room to like, cool it down and give everyone some space and they wouldn’t let Eric leave because they wanted the fight to happen… And I remember in the first episode when were in were the grocery store Eric and Larissa were fighting over seafood. He wanted to eat it but she was allergic. So Natalie and I were sent over to go “police” the situation. … So I was like “You guys are fighting over seafood? She’s allergic, don’t be an asshole.” … But like, I was the wrong person to send in because I’d [just say], “You’re being stupid, this is dumb.”

Hey sometimes people just need to be called out.

And see, that was my thing. I have no patience for people doing bullshit in the real world so being on a TV show, I get that that was a good call, because I was like “Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you… Here we go, let’s do this!”

What did your friends think when you got on the show?

Well I couldn’t tell anyone. I just told them I was going up to Duck Lake [to help with family] because I was unemployed at the time. Which by the way, is the worst thing and more embarrassing thing to tell anyone [involved] in reality TV. Because [all of the other contestants] had a job. They were like, “So and so’s a student, so and so’s a whatever, Sean’s…. unemployed!” And when we filmed the opening, everyone got filmed doing their jobs. And they were like, well, you’re unemployed. I guess we’ll film you shopping. So my [scene] was me at the mall! … Rude! Every time, it was like Sean UNEMPLOYED! I was like, fuck all of you. *Laughs*

Shopping! And it’s like, with what money, you’re unemployed!

Exactly! *Laughs* But yeah, my friends didn’t know I was on until it was airing. And so when we were [down to] the Final Three, before Tim got voted back in, I think only the third episode was airing the week I was there? And so everybody, once they found out I was back home assumed that I was voted off and assumed I was a loser, and I was like “Fuck all of you, I’m in the finals.” *Laughs* I knew I was going to lose, but I was in the finals, respect me!

[People] all asked a million questions but I had signed a confidentiality agreement. It was a weird situation to be in. People were phoning my parents house, like “Oh my god, are you Sean’s mom? I love your son!” My friends started hating going out with me, because I would get mobbed everywhere. It sounds crazy to say now in my life when nobody knows who I am or gives a fuck who I am, but at a point in my life I couldn’t go out! … I wound up becoming a homebody so that I could spend time with my friends and not be the weird guy getting stared at all of the time.

That’s actually interesting, because I didn’t think that it would be like that in Canada. We have that rep of being more chill with celebrities and everything.

Well, Much Music’s [target] audience was more the tween age. It wasn’t mature adults being all “[Look at the] celebrity!” It was kids who voted for me on the show screaming for me. It didn’t really go away the whole time I was on television. …

When we were filming, we were in a bubble… If we went out, we had a babysitter with us. We didn’t really know what was going on out there. I remember being on the flight home and on the little TV in the plane had an ad for the next episode for the VJ search and there I was! I started laughing because I remember thinking “No one is watching this shit, how funny is this?” And there was a soccer team [behind me] … They were watching the same ad. And at the time [the show] had dyed my hair this disgusting colour of bleach blonde hell, ruined my hair, it was straw I hated it. Literally bleached it five times. My scalp was on fire. I hated that day.

They made you do that for the show?

Yeah, there was the makeover episode… They interview you before hand and they were like “What is the one thing you’d hate?” And I was like “I’d hate to be blonde.” So of course they did that for drama. Of course. Anyway, the soccer team started to be like “Oh my god, that’s you!” And freaking out over me. And I was like, holy crap! Are people watching this show, or are you just seeing me on TV right now and being like “Ha ha ha!” It was so weird.

Yeah, the blonde thing sounds like the earlier seasons of America’s Next Top Model when they’d shave the poor woman’s head because she was like “I love my hair!” and they would be all “Bitch, you’re bald now!”

Yeah, 100%. I’m not the type of person that gives a shit. One of my best friends was a hairdresser. I [thought], I’ll just go home and fix this. It’s no big deal. But I’m still mad to this day, because they were like “Sean, do blondes really have more fun?” and I was all, “Well if the VJ thing doesn’t work out, I can always go to law school…” And no one got my Legally Blonde joke. I was really mad about that. *Laughs*

What was the vibe of the competition on set? Were you all friends?

We were all forced to hang out. You got one ten-minute phone call twice a week. You had no real connection to the outside world. You kind of had to find your clique basically, within these ten people. … You worked so much, there wasn’t a lot of downtown. I remember when we were shooting an elimination until 3 in the morning and we had to leave for Edmonton at 6 in the morning. I was so exhausted. It’s no wonder I was so bitchy!

I have to tell you the greatest thing, and I think what people don’t understand about reality shows, at least the less scripted ones… When they sat me in front of that confessional camera for an interview with the producer. It was the best therapy! There was no one around, no one could hear you. You could just vent your soul to the camera! And of course at the time you’re not thinking, “This is going to air, everyone is going to hear what is coming out of my mouth…” It was a beautiful experience, because you’re frustrated. [Imagine] if you have a co-worker that frustrates you, guess what you live with them now. Guess what, they’re in your face all of the time. There’s no real break. So to just sit in front of that that camera, and just let your soul out and crush it, was very needed and very necessary.

After the show ended, because you were so honest on camera, did people get really weird around you? Did they act like they knew you already?

I wouldn’t say they felt like they knew me, but there was an expectation that they owned me. And that I HAD to stop and HAD to take those pictures. I remember going out to a club when I first moved to Toronto, and there was this girl who lost her shit over me. And I was like “Ha, girl, whatever…” And I walked away [from her] because I was leaving. And in my mind, it was joke… She ended up emailing the network about how I was such a bitch at this club and she couldn’t believe it, so I had to write her an apology email and say I was so sorry. … The entitlement of my time was this crazy thing that just made me question the whole fame thing. … I would be out on dates and people would mob me and it was so weird. And I would not get a second date. Although maybe that’s not why I wouldn’t get the second date, but it certainly wasn’t helping. *Laughs*

I think I already have the answer to this question, but do you think it would be much worse in the age of social media? Because this was before Twitter, before 24/7 everything…

It was [during] the peak of MySpace! … The final three challenge was to direct the music video for Lindsay Robbins. And the only way to get information on her was on MySpace, so I created [an account] on the show. Which, by the way, we had a babysitter the entire time to make sure we weren’t checking our email or Googling ourselves. … So I created an account. I came back after the show and had over 1000 MySpace friends. …. I can only imagine if that show was today… Having Twitter and Instagram, how much bigger it would have been…

Because this was pre-Instagram, there weren’t really “influencers” but do you think anyone signed up for the show to launch their career in another field?

Abso-fucking-lutely! There were some fame whores in that group. Don’t get me wrong, the idea of being famous as a kid had appeals, but I never thought that this show… It was a glorified job interview at the end of the day. … I knew I would lose…. Some flaming homosexual kid from Saskatchewan, I wasn’t going to win this show. For me the whole time it was just this cool experience to have a fun story. I was going to get my job back at Rogers Video and move on. But there were people in there… [One guy] was in there to get a career in the music industry. … One guy wanted to be a producer. … And maybe that was all smart, but I wasn’t in there to take advantage of anything, I was just having a good time. Maybe that was foolish and naïve of me. It’s not necessarily wrong to go on to make connections, but some people were there for different reasons.

Do you think homophobia impacted the end result?

No.

Okay.

I think Tim was cute, it was that age group… It was what they wanted. I don’t think my sexuality had much to do with it. And if it did, I wouldn’t have made the top for a second.

That’s reassuring to hear. I mean, it was only a decade ago, but a lot has changed since then. And there was a lot more bigotry and everything in Canada back in the 2000s, especially in small towns.

Absolutely. I think I proved some people wrong. … I mean, you could see the characters on the show. They were right there. And I was the gay guy. And that’s fine, I am a gay guy, they never instructed me to act or say anything… [Some product placement] but it wasn’t really that scripted.

You mentioned labels. Every show, whether it be reality or scripted, always has those archetypal characters. The joker, the pretty guy, the whore… Do you think people are creating these labels for themselves when they apply, or is it a top down thing?

I would truly say both. I think you have to present yourself in a way that is authentic to who you are, but you have to make sense to the world. And the world loves a label. I think of gender right now, and the whole gender spectrum we live in. I think that spectrum has always existed. It’s funny, all of those people that hate labels are labeling themselves even further. We’re breaking down male and female into everything in between, which has always existed. But we hate labels. But we need labels… … I think we all self-label. If you’re applying to a show, you can’t just be “Becky from Kentucky,” you have to be “Becky the slutty farm girl from Kentucky.” You have to make sense to the world, because if you don’t how can they place you?

So, you know how actors during awards season always look extra skinny and botox-y? As a red carpet correspondent [for STAR!] did you feel the same pressure?

It was definitely a culture shock for me. [With] every job I’ve ever had, your first day is training. I showed up to my first day at STAR! dressed super casually. They were like, “Did you bring a change of clothes, you’re on camera today.” And I was like “What, huh?” So I had to rifle through my wardrobe, I had to get a clothing sponsor. I had to do all of these crazy things I had never even thought about, because on the reality show we just did whatever. And that’s why [Star!] liked me, that’s why they hired me. I got the job offer the day after I lost, with no real explanation, no real understanding of what I would be doing. I know that sounds kind of ignorant, but I thought that there would be training. I didn’t know what I was doing from the reality show, I had no background in this. … I was never pressured by the network to get any work done, to lose any weight, nothing. … I mean, the pressure was there to figure out how to do my own make up, to figure out how to look ready. To start dressing and behaving a certain way was definitely there, because “You represent the network Sean, you’re not just Sean from Regina anymore, you’re Sean the face of STAR!” So, yeah, the plastic surgery no, but you could tell the women, some of them, were getting it. You could tell the pressure was on the women to lose weight.

It almost sounds like the corporate culture. Not even just that organization, everyone just behaving a certain way just because they thought they had to. Sort of a self-perpetuating thing.

It’s weird, being a television host, being an entertainment reporter, your job is to talk about celebrities and amp up that culture, while also sort of being a celebrity. It’s just this weird connection between celebrities have to be perfect so I have to be perfect because I am talking about celebrities. It’s definitely, I just think it’s an industry thing. But there are probably executives out there who are like if you want to host this show, drop 20 pounds. That wouldn’t shock me.

I mean, there is Harvey Weinstein…

Let’s be honest, there is a Harvey Weinstein in Canada, somewhere. There is this perception in the media right now that “We’re Canada and we’re above the racism! We’re not doing what the [USA] is doing…” No, the states [were] doing it all along. It’s not like Donald Trump suddenly made it legal to somehow be a racist again. It’s just, he’s up front about it and so the other racists are like if the President can, I can. And we’d be stupid to think our culture [doesn’t] at least on some levels have some similarities there.

You’re from a small town, right?

I grew up in a town called Pinawa, Manitoba.

I grew up in a small town in the interior of British Columbia. I know you haven’t heard of, so I feel you. *laughs*

You stick out like a sore thumb when you’re a weirdo in a small town. It’s hard enough in a big town. But in a small town, Jesus.

I don’t want to generalize, but there is much more bigotry in small towns than people in cities care to acknowledge.

Oh for sure.

Despite all of the shitty stuff and the pressure that you’ve dealt with, what made you want to stay involved in entertainment?

The human brain is a complex thing… I hated a lot of my time being famous. It robs you of a private life… To this day, I have difficulty being in large crowds if someone looks my way, I’m like ”Oh fuck do they recognize me?” There’s a bit of paranoia. But, selfishly, I love making people laugh. I love making people smile. I am a comedian, a jokester and an entertainer at heart, and I would take in a heart beat, all of the bad things again if it meant I could bring joy to many people.

It wasn’t great being famous. … It put a weird pressure on my parents because [strangers] would call them. It made people not want to hang out with me in public. … But then you’d meet those people that [would say], “You make me laugh… You helped me come out to my parents…” There are a lot of beautiful stories out there that came from that experience.

Do you have any advice to people that want to get involved in the entertainment industry to “be famous?”

Find a real reason to do it, because the famous part is the worst part.

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Sean continues to build his career as an actor and entertainer having appeared in several commercials, and most notably appeared in Academy Award winner Dustin Lance Black’s gay rights mini series WHEN WE RISE. Sean Gehon in on Instagram at @seangehon.

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